Group Buys...Anyone Interested?

[Michael Joly]

Hello Brent,

I'll make one response here, and just one, for clarification.

Re: Your paragraph about Stephen Paul -

Frankly I find your statement "I think it's nice that you are excited about discovering how microphones work..." rather insulting. While I am always pushing myself to learn more, I am not a neophyte. I have been an analog electrical engineer with a specialty in transducers since 1976. From 1980 to 1994 I studied under David Blackmer, founder of dBX Inc. and Earthworks mics. In addition to our shared interest and experiments with LDC mics, David and I built the first Earthworks prototypes on my engineering bench in the early '90s.

re: Lack of de-emphasis circuit -

I did not claim all K67-type Chinese mics lack a de-emphasis circuit as you suggest. I said "Any mic using a K67-type capsule, whether FET or tube, is going to have an 8kz peak if the circuit following it is a flat response type - as is found in all of the Chinese tube mics I'm aware of". I have not had every FET and Tube mic on my bench to test their system frequency response - so I believe you when you say some mics implement HF de-emphasis. But really, the point of my quote above is this - the K67-type capsule as noted by Stephen Paul, has a high frequency rise, and this rise will be passed through to the output unless attenuated electronically. Whether this is pleasing or not is a subjective call. In my experience, more and more people are asking for "SM7-like" response curves from condenser mics as a way of compensating, on the front end, for a percieved lack of warmth in digital recording.

Re: Capsule manufactures in China -

Yes, I agree with you it is a small industry and there are some very very good players in it. I am working with one of them, they and I understand all the physical parameters of the K47-type capsule (the type of my interest) and know how they can be manipulated to good effect.

Re: "Ripping out mesh and swapping components" -

I find this also to be condescending. In my microphone work from 1994 to the present I have taken a very systemic approach to re-engineering or designing microphones. This approach crosses the domains of micro-acoustics, electronics and mechanical engineering - all work documented and verified. A large and very satisfied client base has validated this approach.

Re: High end European mics without de-emphasis -

Well, one person's "sexy and emotional" is another person's "excessively bright".

Re: 8kHz peak -

Yes, perhaps that was an oversimplification and your suggestion that K67-type capsules will have peaks in the upper end of their response, not necessary only at 8kHz can be considered more generally correct. Again, in the mics I have seen, 8kHz seems to the location of the peak. But really, the important point for microphone users is to understand the K67-type caspule has a designed-in HF peak, and this may or may not be attenuated in the following circuit.


Re: The purpose of my presence here -

I'm not out to promote anything. I came here to ask about the particular mic that is being offered as a potential group buy item. I came here to ask "what is the value of this mic relative to a mic such as the Apex 460 which can be had for $189 delivered." Why would I ask this? Because I am known as a helpful, unbiased, buyer's advocate. People encourage me to provide education about mics so I often pose questions is a Socratic fashion to get people thinking.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond to your comments.

[Alan Hyatt]

I worked for DBX during those years. Les Tyler and David were the brainchild. What department did you work in Michael?

[Michael Joly]

Small world. I worked for the dBX sister company - Kintek Inc. Right down the hall on Chappel St. in Newton and later in our own facility on Calvary St. in Waltham.

Because Kintek and motion picture sound was David's "new love" at the time (and he and Zaki were in the process of selling dBx to BSR) I got to spend a lot more one-on-one time with him than did many of the engineers down the hall at dBx proper. We invented a multi-band decilinear compression / expansion system years before Dolby SR and I demonstrated it in the context of a 16mm stereo surround sound print of "King Kong Lives" in Hollywood in 1987 and the Swedish Film Institute in Stockholm in 1988.

My work in general involved "reduction to engineering practice" for analog compressors, expanders, surround sound matrixes, stage and surround loudspeakers and the subwoofer that was chosen by Tom Holman as the foundation of his commercial THX Cinema project - the Kintek KT-90. In addition to my work on a stereo synthesizer product for the NBC television network; I designed, then commissioned turnkey motion picture sound systems in Guangzhou, China at the Friendship Theatre in 1988 and at the Beijing Arts Center in 1990 and delivered technical papers on surround sound engineering to an audience of film exhibition professionals on both occasions.

What was your role Alan?

[Alan Hyatt]

I was in sales with Scott Sylvester, Gary Soprano and a few others. Those were the days of getting the major labels to produce their vinyl using the DBX single ended noise reduction unit.

[caotico]

"...I do not know what happened to Catico..."

Perhaps he is off to Tahiti or Grand Cayman in search of the elusive global warming....

Back from Tahiti. Sorry about that. I thought I had this thread set to email me when anything changed, but I guess I didn't.

Catching up in a hurry...

[caotico]

I summarized some things here (including the specs from the pic Alan posted). Alan, let me know if any of this is wrong, and I will edit it.

http://micgroupbuy.blogspot.com/2009/12/tube-microphone-group-buy-order-now.html

[Mike Raphone]

As the discussion veers off into K67s and accompanying circuitry, I just wanted to remind everyone that Alan said back in post 171 that the capsule is based more on an M7 capsule.

[Mike Raphone]

I have been informed that only the Lollipop mic has a M7 style capsule. This makes me change my vote to the Lollipop mic.

[hargerst]

I have been informed that only the Lollipop mic has a M7 style capsule. This makes me change my vote to the Lollipop mic.
Uhh, we're talking China here, folks. You want an M7 style capsule in the U47 style body? That's really not a problem.

[stettoman]

The only thing that bothers me about this group buy is the fact the unnecessary public contentiousness is very likely to convince Alan to not do another one.

Discussion is one thing, can we take the other stuff backchannel please?

[caotico]

I have been informed that only the Lollipop mic has a M7 style capsule. This makes me change my vote to the Lollipop mic.

Where are you getting this info about the capsule?

I don't care too much about the style either way. In suggesting that we do the non bottle mic, I was going off of two comments, one that suggested the lolipop style would be harder to mod and Alan's post suggesting that "both [mics] have the same spec, but sound pretty much identical."

If it is a different capsule, and people prefer that one, then let's go for it. If it's the same capsule with an aesthetic difference, then lets go for the one that is easier for modders.

I'm fine either way.

[Mike Raphone]

Where are you getting this info about the capsule?


Alan told me.

[caotico]

Alan told me.

Well, then lets go for the bottle mic, if that's the case. The other one, in shape, looks quite a bit like the ACM 6802T that I have.

[chris carter]

Well, then lets go for the bottle mic, if that's the case. The other one, in shape, looks quite a bit like the ACM 6802T that I have.

I vote bottle.

[stettoman]

I have no druther as far as configuration goes. The case is, however, a must. I'm afraid that I don't have the facilities to practice correct microphone hygiene without the case. My studio is under construction and there is no appropriate cab to store my "delicates".

[8finger]

I`v order a pair... hope that we will be enough pepole in the group..
i like the golden one.. but i dont care how it looks if it sounds good..
much love

shlomi

[Paul G]

Not really into the bottle so I vote for the other mic. I really want to do some mods, (to the grill).

Hey Caotico, how is the money being handled? Are you able to get all the contact info to Alan? Thanks.

Paul

[caotico]

Hey Caotico, how is the money being handled? Are you able to get all the contact info to Alan? Thanks.

Paul

I'm not handling money. I'll send contact info to Alan, and he'll send a bill for downpayment from pmi's paypal.

[crazydoc]

I hope it's not locked into paypal - I don't use it.

[Paul G]

I'm not handling money. I'll send contact info to Alan, and he'll send a bill for downpayment from pmi's paypal.

Sounds like a plan, Caotico. Thanks for doing this.

Paul

[stettoman]

"I hope it's not locked into paypal - I don't use it."


Heh heh heh, when it comes to money I doubt anything' locked...

[Alan Hyatt]

Hey guys,

We have PayPal which we prefer, but we also do have a credit card machine. I will begin to take deposits once we get the numbers up. When we reach that, I will let all know where to make their deposit.

I do not want it paid in full. That will done after the mics are in, tested and made ready to ship. Then each one of you will send the balance plus the shipping amount and we will ship.

As we get closer to the number, I will let everyone know. It looks like it will be the one I posted and the color will be black and silver....Waiting to hear about the case...

[Paul G]

Thanks Alan.

[Tracker]

Hi Everyone, i just signed up and wanted to know if someone can confirm that U.K. participants in the group buy will have their mic/s available from the U.K.
As i understood this would be the case, rather than having to ship from the U.S.A.
Thanks.
Tracker.

[Alan Hyatt]

Hi Everyone, i just signed up and wanted to know if someone can confirm that U.K. participants in the group buy will have their mic/s available from the U.K.
As i understood this would be the case, rather than having to ship from the U.S.A.
Thanks.
Tracker.

Well, we never spoke about exporting these mics outside the USA. If we can get a bunch of EU guys to sign up, I can ship those to our UK office, but we would need some quantity. Shipping a few mics to the UK by air and not sea would be too cost prohibitive. Shipping them from the US to the UK would also be too expensive after they landed here. If I were you, I would remove your order until we can get someone on board to help out with promoting this in Europe to get the quantity needed to do a direct shipment to our UK office.

[Tracker]

Hi Alan,
Thanks for a quick response to this and giving clarity.
I seem to recall it being referred to in the original heads up post on Gearslutz, which has now been removed.
More than likely a misunderstanding on my behalf, hence my post.
In any event i hope all goes well.
Enjoy the Festivities everyone.

[chris carter]

The problem is this: There are too many unsettled issues with the mic, and/or unclear information about EXACTLY what we are buying. Essentially, Alan needs one post to spell it all out exactly. Then it can be posted on other forums and the flood will start. But there's no point in talking about it on GS when nobody knows exactly what we are getting.

[MSR74]

The problem is this: There are too many unsettled issues with the mic, and/or unclear information about EXACTLY what we are buying. Essentially, Alan needs one post to spell it all out exactly. Then it can be posted on other forums and the flood will start. But there's no point in talking about it on GS when nobody knows exactly what we are getting.


I second Chris' response. I think that if we had more technical information on the mic and finally settled on one product then the orders would start.

Alan, is there any way to provide exact specs other than mic colors? I also am under the impression that either mic will come with the M7 style cap.

Maybe if we can get some specifics (specs) and nail down one product and make it a done deal (meaning selecting one and sticking with and cutting off the voting process) then we could generate more interest from other forums. Otherwise, if we have the numbers and are we just leting the process carry itself out until the end of the month?

However as I stated above, I think the exact product should be decided at this point so we can try to generate more concrete interest on other forums.

Mick

[Michael Joly]

The capsule type does seem ambiguous. I'm not aware of any Chinese capsule manufacturer making M7-style capsules - if they were they would be in competition with Gefell and this would be big news. In fact, there are very very few companies making K47-type capsules. The K67 is the predominant capsule type produced there.

[Alan Hyatt]

I second Chris' response. I think that if we had more technical information on the mic and finally settled on one product then the orders would start.

Alan, is there any way to provide exact specs other than mic colors? I also am under the impression that either mic will come with the M7 style cap.

Maybe if we can get some specifics (specs) and nail down one product and make it a done deal (meaning selecting one and sticking with and cutting off the voting process) then we could generate more interest from other forums. Otherwise, if we have the numbers and are we just leting the process carry itself out until the end of the month?

However as I stated above, I think the exact product should be decided at this point so we can try to generate more concrete interest on other forums.

Mick

This company offers an M7 clone cap, however it is not on this model. This model has the K67 clone capsule. I have already selected the mic and the consensus is the mic is what is pictured in black and silver. The only other option was the road case. I have no other specs as the same specs are offered on line under at least 5 other brands... This is one of them:

http://www.mxlmics.com/products/Studio_mics/V67i_tube/v67i_tube.html

While it is not an MXL mic, nor green in color, the general spec and plot is the same....as it is on many other of these mics made under several other brand names. I do not intend to spec out the mic in our lab when all the info is already available. Once again, this is a stock mic at a deal for those who want to have something to modify, or just need a tube mic at a low cost. It is nothing more or less than that.

[Alan Hyatt]

The capsule type does seem ambiguous. I'm not aware of any Chinese capsule manufacturer making M7-style capsules - if they were they would be in competition with Gefell and this would be big news. In fact, there are very very few companies making K47-type capsules. The K67 is the predominant capsule type produced there.

Michael, there are a couple of companies making the M7 clone. I am surprised you do not know that!

[Michael Joly]

So there are Chinese companies making Mylar (not PVC) skinned M7 capules with brass ridges that require a specialized mount to adapt it to the more common K67 / K47 saddle type used by these vendors?
http://www.operationdiy.com/images/forums/m7_mount_kit.jpg

[Alan Hyatt]

So there are Chinese companies making Mylar (not PVC) skinned M7 capules with brass ridges that require a specialized mount to adapt it to the more common K67 / K47 saddle type used by these vendors?
http://www.operationdiy.com/images/forums/m7_mount_kit.jpg

Got to do your homework Mike! Seek and Ye shall find!

[Paul G]

Now boys, play nice. It's Christmas! LOL

[stettoman]

OK, I'm no great & wonderful expert on acoustics, engineering, production and technical specifications, rather a simple yet enthusiastic home recordist. Though I see the point of some of the brainiacs requiring more detailed specs and components of this mic, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the bulk of those who have signed onto the buy are more like me than the pro engineers that seem to be watchdogging the process. I appreciate the concern of those so direly concerned, yet...

I've been a customer of SP and Meek for some time. Their products have, with a minor exception on a VTB1 that had nothing to do with sound quality and discretion in my signal path, been exceptional.

That said, it follows that the people behind these products have ears and know-how that I trust.

It's been said on this thread, perhaps more than once, that Alan WILL STAND BEHIND THESE MICS, not simply check them for continuity and send them along.

I don't pretend to speak for any other home/project recordists in this buy, but as far as I'm concerned, being as I don't own any AKG 414s or high end Neumanns or such, a buy like this from people I trust to put a buy like this together AND STAND BEHIND THE MICS for the price offered is a godsend to the likes of me.

OK, I agree that for some a spec sheet/freq graph/whathaveyou may attract a larger number of participants, but GEEZ LOUIZE, the contentious atmosphere can only serve to chase more away...

Oh, and Merry Christmas...

[recordinghacks]

> http://www.mxlmics.com/products/Studio_mics/V67i_tube/v67i_tube.html

Alan, thanks for the comparison.

Is there still an opportunity to add the bottle mic (with M7-style cap) to this buy? Is it just a matter of getting a sufficient-sized order?

I don't want to complicate things, as I think that's the first ingredient in a recipe for disaster. Limiting the buy to one mic might be the right way to go. I just wish we were getting the other mic. ;)

Bottle mics with M7 capsules are pretty rare, and would seem more likely to offer a unique sonic color, something I can't easily buy (certainly not at this price) today. And if it turns out to be a nice mic (or nice capsule) maybe Alan or some of the other vendors will start making it available more widely.

--
matt.

[Paul G]

> http://www.mxlmics.com/products/Studio_mics/V67i_tube/v67i_tube.html

Alan, thanks for the comparison.

Is there still an opportunity to add the bottle mic (with M7-style cap) to this buy? Is it just a matter of getting a sufficient-sized order?

I don't want to complicate things, as I think that's the first ingredient in a recipe for disaster. Limiting the buy to one mic might be the right way to go. I just wish we were getting the other mic. ;)

Bottle mics with M7 capsules are pretty rare, and would seem more likely to offer a unique sonic color, something I can't easily buy (certainly not at this price) today. And if it turns out to be a nice mic (or nice capsule) maybe Alan or some of the other vendors will start making it available more widely.

--
matt.

Hi Matt. I thought Alan said a few post back that both of the mics had the 67 cap, (I, of course, could be wrong).

[chris carter]

I have no other specs as the same specs are offered on line under at least 5 other brands... This is one of them:

http://www.mxlmics.com/products/Studio_mics/V67i_tube/v67i_tube.html



Thanks Alan. Could you list a couple other comparisons, this is VERY helpful!

[stettoman]

I received an email from the group buy site a couple weeks ago saying that Dec. 31 was the date for making our down payments and getting the process started. I'm ready, but no further announcements arrived.

I know there are still questions and "issues" for some involved, but at the risk of being shown "the hand", is this thing on?

...Or have we been sufficiently scrutinized and minutia'd out of bidnez?

[Paul G]

I received an email from the group buy site a couple weeks ago saying that Dec. 31 was the date for making our down payments and getting the process started. I'm ready, but no further announcements arrived.

I know there are still questions and "issues" for some involved, but at the risk of being shown "the hand", is this thing on?

...Or have we been sufficiently scrutinized and minutia'd out of bidnez?

I believe that the afore mentioned email said that info on the current numbers would be forwarded to Alan and he would contact us with payment info, (assuming that we HAVE sufficient numbers). We haven't heard anything from caotico in a while though...

Paul

[caotico]

Well, on eventbrite (which is still open), people have signed up for 56 mics. Alan originally said 250 units.

As far as the date, I had arbitrarily said DEC 31 because that was what I had set the eventbrite info to before (but have now kept registration open).

In previous threads, Chris Carter suggested more people would get on board with more info. Alan countered, stating we had all the info in the specs and linking a comparison to an MXL tube mic.

There was some confusion over the capsule, but it's clear from what Alan said recently, it's a k67 type and that the bottle is NOT an M7 type capsule (i.e. that they are both the same capsule). This makes the decision easy as far as style; we go with the one that, according to some earlier posters, is easier to mod (not the bottle).

But unless either Alan no longer needs us to order 250 units or 194 mics are spoken for in a hurry, it looks like this won't happen. What say ye?

[Paul G]

Well, on eventbrite (which is still open), people have signed up for 56 mics. Alan originally said 250 units.

As far as the date, I had arbitrarily said DEC 31 because that was what I had set the eventbrite info to before (but have now kept registration open).

In previous threads, Chris Carter suggested more people would get on board with more info. Alan countered, stating we had all the info in the specs and linking a comparison to an MXL tube mic.

There was some confusion over the capsule, but it's clear from what Alan said recently, it's a k67 type and that the bottle is NOT an M7 type capsule (i.e. that they are both the same capsule). This makes the decision easy as far as style; we go with the one that, according to some earlier posters, is easier to mod (not the bottle).

But unless either Alan no longer needs us to order 250 units or 194 mics are spoken for in a hurry, it looks like this won't happen. What say ye?

I'm in agreement, Caotico, except I thought Alan had said the minimum order was now 50. I could be wrong, though. :-)

Paul

[caotico]

Guys,
I am open for comments, but before anyone ponies up money, I have to tell you I can do this for 50 mics...So we need a way to find out how many we are in for first. Then the factory will build them on my say so without any money, but I will ask for at least a deposit of 50% at that time...but time won't be wasted as the build would start. We also have to decide the color of the body and the grille...and if you all want a name on it or not.

Ok, let's see what happens.

Looks like he did say that. If that's the case, let's move this forward. With a confirmation from Alan, I'll send him the info. The signup page is still open if anybody else wants to jump on board.

[Paul G]

Looks like he did say that. If that's the case, let's move this forward. With a confirmation from Alan, I'll send him the info. The signup page is still open if anybody else wants to jump on board.

Thanks, my friend. I wonder how long it will take for Alan to receive the deposits, (after he's notified everyone). I remember Chance's GB taking quite a while for folks to pay up. LOL

[Airlock]

I just confirmed for one mic, but I didn't do the poll as I am clueless, and no matter what you guys decide on it will probably be a nice addition to the NT1A and PR-40 I have here.

Thanks Alan!

Happy New Year all!

[Alan Hyatt]

Guys, so far this is not working. Only 55 mics on order and I am sorry to say that is not enough for me to do this.

I was willing to get you guys a quality mic at a good price. A few have wanted me to go far above with providing all sorts of specs and details. Again, I have always said this is a good mic and compares to many other South China brands. It is a good DYI project mic and another good flavor in your locker for cheap....but I can't do it for this low quantity. My factories are not geared to do that.

It looks like this deal is bust... Sorry... If you find a way to get a couple hundred mics, let me know.

[stettoman]

Well, I'm glad that someone got what they wanted in this buy...

Alan, please don't let this experience stop you from trying it again down the road. Thanks for trying.

[chris carter]

I don't want to sound critical of Alan... but the fact of the matter is that there wasn't enough interest for one reason only. As someone who has participated in group buys before, in order to generate interest you need to tell people exactly what they are getting in a clear and concise manner. Just a single post with a pic and all the info. Then we could have copied/posted on other forums and it would have poured in. I've seen plenty of situations where someone without any kind of reputation proposes a group buy, even at a lousy price, but has all the info and it's amazing how many people say they want in.

Anyway, I just want to be clear on WHY there were only 55 mics in this buy. Group buys always have a certain amount of risk in the end product, delivery, etc. Most people can tolerate that for a good price. Where you can't really comprimise is in communicating exactly what they will be getting, and that wasn't done in a clear enough manner here.

Anyway, I'm thankful that at least now we know for sure it won't happen so I can stop bothering to check this forum LOL.

[BigTom]

I don't want to sound critical of Alan... but the fact of the matter is that there wasn't enough interest for one reason only. As someone who has participated in group buys before, in order to generate interest you need to tell people exactly what they are getting in a clear and concise manner. Just a single post with a pic and all the info. Then we could have copied/posted on other forums and it would have poured in. I've seen plenty of situations where someone without any kind of reputation proposes a group buy, even at a lousy price, but has all the info and it's amazing how many people say they want in.

Anyway, I just want to be clear on WHY there were only 55 mics in this buy. Group buys always have a certain amount of risk in the end product, delivery, etc. Most people can tolerate that for a good price. Where you can't really comprimise is in communicating exactly what they will be getting, and that wasn't done in a clear enough manner here.

Anyway, I'm thankful that at least now we know for sure it won't happen so I can stop bothering to check this forum LOL.

I'd have to agree 100 percent!!

[Airlock]

Well, if all we are missing is specs, would the MXL specs qualify as "ballpark" specs, and if so, what other info would we need to push the buy in other forums? I'm a little surprised that this hasn't gotten off the ground considering the potential savings (that MXL goes for almost 5 bills) but I'm a noob so, uh, hmm.

Type:
Pressure gradient tube condenser mic
Diaphragm:
6 and 8 micron gold-sputtered
Capsule Size:
32mm/1.26 in.
Frequency Response:
20Hz - 20kHz
Polar pattern:
Cardioid
Sensitivity:
22 mV/Pa
Output Impedance:
200 ohms
Attenuation Switch:
0 dB, -10 dB
High Pass Filter:


6 dB/octave @ 150Hz
Equivalent Noise:


22 dB (A-weighted IEC 268-4)
S/N Ratio:
72 dB (Ref. 1 Pa A-weighted)
Max SPL for .5% THD:
140/150 dB (0dB/-10dB pad)
Power Requirements:
110/220 VAC, 50-60Hz/Dedicated power supply

[caotico]

Well, if all we are missing is specs, would the MXL specs qualify as "ballpark" specs, and if so, what other info would we need to push the buy in other forums? I'm a little surprised that this hasn't gotten off the ground considering the potential savings (that MXL goes for almost 5 bills) but I'm a noob so, uh, hmm.


Well, those who have criticized a lack of info could have been a little more constructive, letting Alan know exactly what they wanted. I don't think they just wanted tech specs.

He did provide most of these types of specs, but I think that the trouble is that a lot of mics have the same or similar specs coming out of China, but specs don't always tell you that much about the mic.

I did get a couple of people who canceled their order because they didn't want "another k67 type capsule."

It is true that you can get other tube mics for under $200, so I think what people wanted was a definite sense that what they were getting wasn't the same as a tube mic they could get for just a few dollars more without waiting for the group buy.

That seems to be why the M7 capsule (that I guess wasn't actually available to us) generated more interest.

So I think people either want to know they're getting a bargain on something that would cost a lot more otherwise or that they were getting something that wasn't readily available.

I, of course, am no expert and don't know a lot about the different kinds of capsules.

[stettoman]

Considering that rigor has set upon this buy I suggest the thread be deleted.

Alan, please alert us to the status of your SP/JM ribbon mic development.

[whonthinele]

How could you combine the shipping if all the members live in different places? I have never quite understood group buys.