Advice for choosing mics to record doublebass.

[Bgreen]

I would like to ask for some advice on which microphone models I could use to record string ensembles, full orchestra performances and double bass solos. My son is a bass player in highschool and does solo/concerto competitions as well as UIL Region, all area and all state audition recordings on CD. I would like to skew my choice of mics towards recording the double bass if that makes a difference.
I have made some recordings of him playing his fretless acoustic/electric bass guitar using a MOTU 8PRE that are much better than the school was able to do for everyone's all state auditions and my son's private tutor mentioned that I should record the all state audition sessions next year. It is important the audition CD's we make are as good as we can do. Well, as good as I can afford that is so lets be reasonable! I would like to record him and the other students at his school that compete if this all works out.
I am currently leaning towards buying two of the Studio Projects B3's since many reviews have mentioned they are more natural in tone than the C1 and C3. I would like the flexibility to use mid/side, Blumlein, and any of the spaced or coincident pair stereo methods. The LSD looks great but could not be used for the spaced pair techniques.
How do the B3's campare to, say, something like the AKD TL mics? The specs for each are remarkably similar but the huge difference in price makes me wonder.
He is also the bass player in a rock band and I have had success using my portable rig to record them using all 8 channels on the 8PRE at 24bit/96k for up to half an hour non stop. I just set up, hit record and let them play. After doing a few of these sessions I am now certain two mics using any of the stereo techniques should within my systems capability.
Any advice would be great. I use a PC laptop, Cubase SX along with the MOTU 8pre for recording so phantom power is not an issue.

Thank you,

Bill

[Bgreen]

Hello.......Anyone.........

[earlwgreen]

Hi Bill,

It appears everyone is really busy. I just got an answer yesterday on the JoeMeek section from Alan and he was on his way out of the country.

So, someone should answer you soon!

[Bgreen]

No advice at all????????
Is recording classical instruments and ensembles too far off topic for this board?
Come on, someone please help us out!!

[Ausrock]

Bill,

Alan would probably be the best person at SP to comment on this but he was still o/seas 3 days ago. I would suggest emailing him directly.... alan@pmiaudio.com .....with your enquiry and a reference to this, so far unanswered, thread here.

:cool:

[hargerst]

I'd record him in mono, using a C4 with the omni capsule. For recording larger ensembles, I'd switch to a spaced pair of C4's and try it with both capsules.

[Brent Casey]

No advice at all????????
Is recording classical instruments and ensembles too far off topic for this board?
Come on, someone please help us out!!


Hello Bill,

I am sorry that your query has gone officially unanswered for this amount of time. On March 30, I did write a reply to your post in this forum while standing in a driveway about 1600 miles north of the PMI office with my laptop perched on the passenger seat of a Mercedes delivery truck, but the wireless network I thought I was on seems to have dropped off at some point.

As to a pair of B3's for recording ensembles - There are plenty of advantages to this: They are relatively quiet, the cardioid and figure of eight have good off-axis attenuation and as stated in reviews, the mics are fairly transparent and neutral. I will add that these mics give the impression of neutrality, but there is still a broad rise in amplitude in the highs around 5kHz - 12kHz. For some tasks, the high end peak may not be all that useful, but when we're speaking of ensemble recording, it's not a bad thing to have - especially when there is distance between the mics and the source. The B3 makes a nice room mic - especially in omni (go figure) and I attribute that to the behavior of the capsule in that high frequency range. It has a nice balance. Many mics that sound dark, smoky and lush in a vocal booth end up sounding dull and murky in a more diffuse setting.
Two B3's will indeed present a wide array of possibilities in terms of recording techniques. It sounds as if you have ample opportunity to experiment with a variety of stereo setups. For live recordings with two mics, a near-coincident setup is a good way to go - there is an additional benefit of off-axis attenuation. In a more ideal setting, a Left-Center-Right omni combination is dynamite, but the former method I like for the simplicity, imaging and sound quality. Also, I tend to use Blumlein miking for jam sessions, informal performances and rehearsals. Additionally for this purpose, I find a single B3 omni more than suitable. Talk about simplicity...

As for the C-Series mics, although they may not be as neutral, are quite suitable for live stereo recording - especially now that they are compatible with the Halo shockmount system. These are shockmounts which can be configured in a variety of ways to allow for coincident and near-coincident miking. In fact, with the addition of the new SP extension bar, which ships with the C4's or is available as an accessory, one can go from a vertically coincident orientation to horizontal near-coincident without even removing the mics from the shockmounts, or the shockmounts from the stereo bar.

If you want a mic that is designed for stereo recording of ensembles, I would recommend the SP C4's. The new models have arrived and will be widely available by the end of the week. I have a recording made on March 29 of the Sylvan Wind Quintet at the Tenri Cultural Institute of New York using a pair of these mics through Grace preamps - no eq. The performance is quite compelling, even moreso for me due to the distinct lack of any hiss or noise from the recording equipment. If you want advice on microphones for ensemble recording, then I recommend our C4's. They are sold in pairs and come in a case. Inside the case are two sets of capsules - cardioid and omnidirectional, two very nice, high quality windscreens, two mic clips and a stereo bar. There is also an adapter which can be used to raise one C4 up by 20mm, allowing for coincident miking. Additionally, there are now C4 hypercardioid heads available direct from Studio Projects and a diffuse field omni capsule in the works as we speak.

Hopefully this information will help you out. Again, I apologize for the wait. If you have any further questions, please let me know. My direct email is Brent@pmiaudio.com. In the meantime, I'll check online a bit more diligently.

Sincerely,

Brent Casey
877-563-6335

[Bgreen]

Mr. Casey, thank you very much for your input. It is very helpful.

Mr. Gerst, thank you for your expert advice. I would like to offer some more information for your consideration. The specs for the C4 state its lowest response to be 40 Hz. The open E on the double bass is roughly 31 Hz. Some of the music my son plays require him to tune the E string down to to D. Also at some point he will probably be required to get an extension fitted to his instrument which will then go down to either a low C or low B. The low B is roughly 21 Hz. This was the main reason I did not consider the C4's.
The reason I would record the bass in stereo is to include the room sound. He performs in a couple of world class halls here in the Houston area and I would like to capture the overall sound. I am certain you have much more knowledge and experience in recording than I do so I would like to hear more from you. Do you have any suggestions?

Ausrock and Earlwgreen, thank you for letting me know that someone was indeed listening!

Bill

[hargerst]

If you'll note, the suggestion I made was the omni capsule on the C4, which doesn't start rolling off till much lower. Most true omni's are pretty flat down to the low teens. Brent can probably supply us with real numbers for the omni capsule's low end response.

As far as bass frequencies are concerned, the open E1 fundamental of a double bass is 41.20 Hz, while dropping it to D1 would lower it to 36.71 Hz - both notes well within the range of the C4 with the omni capsule.

If you want to capture a lot of the room, then yes, use two spaced C4's, in stereo, with the omni capsules.

[Brent Casey]

If you'll note, the suggestion I made was the omni capsule on the C4, which doesn't start rolling off till much lower. Most true omni's are pretty flat down to the low teens. Brent can probably supply us with real numbers for the omni capsule's low end response.

As far as bass frequencies are concerned, the open E1 fundamental of a double bass is 41.20 Hz, while dropping it to D1 would lower it to 36.71 Hz - both notes well within the range of the C4 with the omni capsule.

If you want to capture a lot of the room, then yes, use two spaced C4's, in stereo, with the omni capsules.


The C4 omni is linear from about 5kHz down well below 20Hz.

-Brent

[Bgreen]

Mr. Gerst, thank you for correcting my note/frequency mistakes and the explaination of an omni mic's frequency characteristics. I am very new to all of this and I am looking for all of the knowledgable advice I can find. After reading your advise for recording a soloist in a great sounding room I would like to ask another question. How would you record a solo bass with piano accompaniment in the same great sounding room? I am interested in capturing the performers and the natural reverb of the room since we can not use artifical reverb or any other "electronic" enhancement on these recordings. Any suggestions for a room mic? As Mr. Casey stated earlier, I have ample opportunity to experiment, I just need a little advice on where to start!

Mr. Casey, thank you for giving more information on the C4's response to low frequencies. All of the information I can find on the C4's list only what is on the Spec page for them on this website. Even the Polar and Plot Graph for the C4 on this site's download section stops at 50 Hz. This is what formed my impression that it would not be a great mic for recording the double bass. Do you have any additional advice on the questions I have asked above.

[hargerst]

For that type of work, I'm a big fan of small omni's. They have no proximity effect, so placing them close to the source doesn't change the sound, and pulling them back from the source lets you regulate the ratio of room to source sound for a good blend of the two.

Start on the piano, with an omni about 2 to 6 feet out from the lid. I would put another omni about 2 to 3 feet from the bass, aimed somewhere between the f hole and the neck joint.

[Brent Casey]

Mr. Gerst, thank you for correcting my note/frequency mistakes and the explaination of an omni mic's frequency characteristics. I am very new to all of this and I am looking for all of the knowledgable advice I can find. After reading your advise for recording a soloist in a great sounding room I would like to ask another question. How would you record a solo bass with piano accompaniment in the same great sounding room? I am interested in capturing the performers and the natural reverb of the room since we can not use artifical reverb or any other "electronic" enhancement on these recordings. Any suggestions for a room mic? As Mr. Casey stated earlier, I have ample opportunity to experiment, I just need a little advice on where to start!

Mr. Casey, thank you for giving more information on the C4's response to low frequencies. All of the information I can find on the C4's list only what is on the Spec page for them on this website. Even the Polar and Plot Graph for the C4 on this site's download section stops at 50 Hz. This is what formed my impression that it would not be a great mic for recording the double bass. Do you have any additional advice on the questions I have asked above.


Hi Bill,

C4's are quite suitable for recording double bass. The original frequency plots were generated only from 50Hz and above.
Because you have indicated the importance of capturing the extreme low frequencies of the double bass, the omni pair may be the better way to go.
When playing in really nice halls in the Houston area with piano accompaniment, is the instrument primarily bowed? What sort of arrangements are they typically playing?

-Brent

[Bgreen]

Brent,
My son has performed a Capuzzi Concerto, a Dittersdorf Concerto and is currently working on "A Little Concerto" by Gordon Jacob which he will be performing at a State Solo and Ensemble Competition in a month or so. The State UIL solo requirements will be out soon and there is no telling what will be required. Last year an Etude by the bass virtuoso Francois Rabbath was included. These are all arco classical pieces. He does play a pizzicato Etude by Rabbath called Ode D'Espagne which is quite an interesting piece. Then there is a vast collection of full orchestra pieces he plays with his school orchestra and a local youth symphony which are all mostly arco.
Please understand I am mostly the "Roadie". His tutor and a few other teachers handle the tough stuff. I am mostly responsible for transportation, finances, being his personal "Pep Squad" and emotional support. In other words I am just the Dad! I throughly enjoy every second of it though.

Bill

[Brent Casey]

Brent,
My son has performed a Capuzzi Concerto, a Dittersdorf Concerto and is currently working on "A Little Concerto" by Gordon Jacob which he will be performing at a State Solo and Ensemble Competition in a month or so. The State UIL solo requirements will be out soon and there is no telling what will be required. Last year an Etude by the bass virtuoso Francois Rabbath was included. These are all arco classical pieces. He does play a pizzicato Etude by Rabbath called Ode D'Espagne which is quite an interesting piece. Then there is a vast collection of full orchestra pieces he plays with his school orchestra and a local youth symphony which are all mostly arco.
Please understand I am mostly the "Roadie". His tutor and a few other teachers handle the tough stuff. I am mostly responsible for transportation, finances, being his personal "Pep Squad" and emotional support. In other words I am just the Dad! I throughly enjoy every second of it though.

Bill

Thanks for the clarifications.
My recommendations for the C4 stand. As for placement on piano and bass, I think Harvey summed things up pretty well. The bass mic should face head on at the bass. A 1-3 foot range will pick up the variety of resonances from the bow. As for the piano - I like the sound of a piano when there is some distance between it and the mic - eg, 5-6 feet. For what you are doing though, I would be inclined to start with the mic fairly close to the piano, maybe 2 feet or less.
It sounds like your son is pretty lucky to have a Dad providing support and audio engineering. It's a good thing to have luck and talent. I'm sure it's exciting for him and everyone involved to be performing at the state level.
Also, it's interesting for me to hear what you're up to, since my son is partial to the upright bass as well. He is four. I'm building him one out of scrap wood and a couple of big hat boxes we bought at Ross Dress For Less. The only other investments have been in tuning machines, strings and a radius block used for shaping the fingerboard. It has a 40" scale, but is closer to the ground. It's about 90% finished right now.


-Brent Casey

[Ausrock]

Brent,

You may be interested in reading here....... http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=37976 ........about building a Double Bass.

WARNING:.......It is an Australian woodworking forum although we do allow US guys in so long as they behave themselves :D

ChrisO :cool:

[Brent Casey]

Brent,

You may be interested in reading here....... http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=37976 ........about building a Double Bass.

WARNING:.......It is an Australian woodworking forum although we do allow US guys in so long as they behave themselves :D

ChrisO :cool:


Oh cool! I will definitely check that out. Thank you.
And don't worry - I'm not one of those stereotypical US guys...
So, Australia sounds like a nice place. It must be fascinating to live in a country that shares its borders with countries like Italy and Switzerland.

-Brent

[Brent Casey]

Ausrock,

Wow. There is some great, comprehensive info on those pages. That's just the thing I've been looking for. Many thanks.

-Brent

[Alan Hyatt]

Just to add some spice here...While not for live use, the C1's on recorded piano are very good. Use them in pairs and I think you will find them to be excellent for piano.

[Ausrock]

Brent,

Please check your PM's :) ........I sent one about a week ago.

ChrisO :cool: