Questions for Alan

[ryguy]

Hey Alan,

I'm new to recording but have always been a bit of a gearhead with my instruments and effects etc. I have a Roland VS 2400 that I am using to learn to record on. I have done a couple of songs but I still am finding it difficult to get a vocal sound I like. I have a SP C1 mic that I am using, which I like, but I'm not getting the crispness I;m looking for on my vocal tracks. So I am seriously thinking about getting the twinQ in hopes that it will give me a little more what I'm after. I have tossed around several preamps in my head and I think that the twinQ is at the top based on features I want a preamp to have and general reviews.

My questions are as follows:

1.) Is this preamp going to produce a noticeable difference for my rookie ears?

2.) Is the C1 worth using with it or is a better mic needed?

3.) What's the best way to learn about setting up the EQ and Comp for optimal sound on a various voices.

4.) I understand that joemeek is giving away a JM37 for twinQ buyers in Canada...Is this mic a step up from the C1 or on par?

Cheers,
Ryan

[Chrisco]

Apologies to Alan, but I thought I'd chime in.

I would think that more information would be needed: vocal style (male/female, etc.), style of music, mic placement,pop filter, room type, ...

I have been using a VS2400 for two years now, although never with a C1, and the only time I was unable to get a bright enough tone on vocals was when using a Blue Baby Bottle (which I tried on four different vocalists to help me decide before purchasing, I didn't buy it for this very reason). I currently use a Rode K2, and have frequently used a SP B1, as well as other mics from Neumann, AKG, and Audio Technica.

I find the 2400's pre's to be clean, if maybe a bit sterile and thin, definitely not lacking high end. I usually use my Joemeek 3Q to helpme get a warmer tone, and I would assume that the Twin Q would be somewhat similar.

[Alan Hyatt]

Ok, room acoustics have a lot to do with it, and so does the monitor speakers your listening to. The C1 should give you plenty of sizzle. I hope you are singing into the front side of the mic and not the rear. I do not want to make you or anyone else sound silly, but some people set the mic up and sing into the rear by mistake.

The TwinQ is by far a much better preamp and tone center, but the question is will it do better for you. I would like to resolve the issue of the mic not having a crisp sound.

Are you using EQ? What kind of room are you in? What monitors do you have?

Do you need two channels of external mic amps like the twinQ offers, or is one enough? Check your cables to be sure you are running the unit balanced. Make sure you have a good phantom source and not 12 to 24 volts. You need 48 volts.

Move the Roland and mic to another room and do a test vocal track. Do you get a different sound when you do this?

I think when we get more answers, we can solve your problem....

[ryguy]

I am using active tannoy reveals for my monitors. My room isn't really ideal for recording ie: no sound treatment done as of yet. It's a temporary room, so I haven't done what I would like to do.

I am singing into the front :) I just find that I get a flatter sound than I want with the C1. It doesn't "sit" as well as I'd like in the mix. I guess I'm looking for a little more punch to the vocal sound. Maybe crisp isn't the best adjective to descibe what it is I am after. Punch may not be it either, but what I guess I'm ultimately after is a more lively sound, without having to do tons of EQ'ing on the the roland to get it there.

I realize that because my room isn't optimal, that I will therefore get a suboptimal vocal sound, but I would like to improve on it as much as I can until I am in a room that I can fully treat.

I am using the 2400's pres and it does supply 48V of phantom power, no probs with getting a hot enough signal.

I don't necessarily need 2 channels at this stage, but I also don't want to find that I another would have come in handy in a particular situation.

Thanks fr your help.

Ryan

[Scott Collins]

Quote: "It doesn't "sit" as well as I'd like in the mix. I guess I'm looking for a little more punch to the vocal sound. "

These issues could be compression related, too. What compressors are you currently using?

I've been enjoying a combo I saw recommended on the UAD forums for vocals: running an LA2A into a 1176LN. Sounds like overkill, but it doesn't have to be. Using these compressors like this isn't just about controlling the dynamics (you could do that with a single compressor just fine), but leveraging the characteristics of each compressor to shape the sound.

The LA2A is smooth, while the 1176LN can really affect the vocal sound - especially with a really fast release. The attack time can also affect the highs a great deal.

[ryguy]

I'm currently just using everything that's built into the roland VS 2400. Comp, pre's, EQ etc, verbs etc.

I am going to get the UA software versions of the 1176 and LA2A. I've heard nothing but good things about both. The plug-in software is supposed to be very nice too.

What compressor settings are generally used on male vocals....What are the determining factors that one should be looking for when setting the compression on a vocalist. I've been using a 4:1 ratio, with about a 25ms attack and .5sec release. I have no idea if this is correct or not. Plus, what should my threshold setting be? I understand the first 3 settings, in theory anyway, but I can't figure out what factors make someone decide on the threshold setting. any recommendations?

[Scott Collins]

Sounds like you are asking the right questions - I'm not sure if there are any perfect answers (but if there are, I don't know 'em yet!)

For attack time what I've been trying lately is something like this: start with a stronger threshold than you'll actually use (i.e. just crank it way down so there's no question you're compressing a good deal) and maybe even try a higher ratio than you'll need. In this state, start with the threshold as fast as you can get it. Slowly increase the attack until you hear something you like, then pull back threshold/ratio to something more reasonable. (This approach will just exaggerate the effect of the attack time.) In the same excercise, I'd start with a moderate release time - maybe 45ms? - and once you've got the attack set, move this setting around until you like the tone/sound/character/whatever.

Seems to me on the 1176 (which has a really fast attack time) the line between letting some additional highs through and causing some harshness on my particular voice is pretty slim. Generally, I'm using very fast attack time and turning the knob (software) like between 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 (see http://my.uaudio.com/store/images/1176LN_big-10x8.gif the LN gets faster at the higher numbers - different from most compressors in this respect), and fairly fast release settings. But, of course, this is all influenced by the fact that I'm first trimming peaks with the LA2A (and every other variable).

For my vocals I'm using a 1176LN ratio of 4:1 and it is always compressing. The LA2A will not read any gain reduction on soft passages, and up to 4-6 dB reduction on the loudest passages. If you'd like to hear some of the new stuff I'm working on with these settings let me know and I'll Private Message you a link to a rough mix of current stuff (I think the vocal sound has improved significantly since I recorded the stuff currently on my website.)

On a tune I'm working on, though, I've had a cool effect on the BG vocals using the EX-1 on a ratio of about 6:1, getting about 8dB reduction. I think attack was around 2ms... amazing how much difference the attack time was making. But - that was just that particular track.

As far as setting threshold... you know the theory around the dynamics control. Just remember the other factor is deliberately using the compressor to shape the tone. One easy pitfall is probably to overuse a compressor for this purpose (i.e. shaping the voice) when the need is better addressed somewhere else... but, on the other hand... who really cares HOW you get a cool sound. (Use a ratio of 50:1 if you think it works!)

Also - I don't think the settings are based on male/female voices, but YOUR voice in particular. Some settings that flatter one voice won't work on another.

[ryguy]

Scott,

Thanks for the in depth reply. I'll try your recommendations. It would be nice to have someone locally for me to sit and learn from.... I'm searching. I'm more of a visual learner...and I need to make sense of it before it sinks in.

I'd love to hear your stuff with the compression before and after if possible. If only after, that's cool too!!

Cheers,
Ryan